When You Give Everyone Grace Except Yourself with Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller

Have you spent years extending empathy, grace and understanding to everyone except yourself?

Many of us know exactly how to comfort someone else, excuse their mistakes and understand the circumstances behind their behavior. But when we struggle, make a mistake or fall back into an old pattern, that same grace suddenly disappears.

Melissa is an emotional intelligence coach, international speaker, author of The Empathic Leader and TEDx Editors’ Pick speaker. In this candid conversation, she joins Pam to explore self-empathy, shame, boundaries, people-pleasing and the hidden emotional weight so many of us carry.

Melissa shares how an assault, toxic leadership and the shame that followed affected her body, her music career and the way she saw herself. Her healing required her to understand that although she still had to deal with what happened, she did not cause it, and she did not deserve it.

Pam and Melissa also examine the relationship between shame and unhealthy coping, why boundaries require consequences, and how self-empathy creates enough space to recognize a pattern without using that recognition as another weapon against yourself.

You’ll hear:

• The distinction between being nice and being genuinely kind
• Why boundaries without consequences are only suggestions
• How childhood survival can lead us to assume responsibility for everything
• Why judgment and empathy cannot occupy the same space
• How to observe your behavior without dogpiling on yourself
• Four steps for developing self-empathy
• The difference between a healthy boundary and an isolating barrier
• Why caring for yourself first is not selfish
• How leaders can balance a cool head with a warm heart

This episode is part of Week 3: BUILDING MOMENTUM of Delay the Binge™: The Journey.

One choice becomes another.

WATCH OR LISTEN TO THE FULL EPISODE
[ADD MELISSA’S GENIUS LINK]

EXPLORE THE COMPLETE JOURNEY
https://tpkkconcepts.com/delay-the-binge-the-journey/

CONNECT WITH DR. MELISSA ROBINSON-WINEMILLER

Website: https://eqviaempathy.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-melissa-a-robinson-winemiller-author-speaker-trainer/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheEmpathicLeader
TEDx Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaoXSEWeILo&t=63s

CONNECT WITH PAM DWYER

Website: https://pamdwyer.com
Delay the Binge™: https://delaythebinge.com
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PamDwyerSpeaker
PJ Hamilton’s Front Porch: https://pjhamiltonauthor.substack.com/

Your past does not define you; it prepares you.

Pause. Choose. Build momentum. Finish stronger.

Content note: This episode includes candid discussion of assault, toxic leadership, shame, body image, alcohol and emotional eating.

This conversation is intended to encourage, educate and invite reflection. It is not a substitute for professional medical, mental health, legal or financial advice. Please seek qualified guidance for your individual circumstances.

Transcript

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Welcome And The Empathy Twist

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to Delay the Binge Podcast, where we explore the pause between impulse and action, reaction and response, and help high-functioning people recognize the hidden patterns quietly draining their lives before those patterns become overwhelm, unhealthy coping habits, self-sabotage, or disconnection from themselves. Today we're talking about empathy, but probably not in the way you're expecting. My guest today is Dr. Melissa Robinson Weinmiller, TEDx editor's pick speaker, emotional intelligence coach, international speaker, and author of The Empathic Leader. Melissa helps leaders and organizations understand that empathy isn't soft, fluffy, or weak. It's one of the most powerful tools we have for building healthier relationships, stronger teams, and better outcomes. But what caught my attention wasn't leadership. It was what happens when empathy gets turned inward. Melissa's work around self-empathy, shame, boundaries, and the powerful distinction between being nice and being kind speaks directly to something many of us struggle with, extending compassion to everyone else while forgetting ourselves. Melissa, welcome to Delay the Binge.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Oh, Pam, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Oh my goodness, we're so honored to have you. I know our listeners are going to really get a lot out of this today. What are you working on right now that has you excited?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Right now, I recently started doing a live stream on LinkedIn on Wednesday nights. Uh it's at six Eastern if anybody's interested. And every week I'm actually taking time to answer the questions that people have given me. So it's it's really fun because I'm getting to interact with my audience, you know, like in real time. So I have one tonight and I'm I'm super jazzed about it because tonight we are talking about self-empathy.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

You're so brave because a lot of people have asked for live for me to do live, and I'm just so nervous about it. I don't know why.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Well, then we need to have you on. You can come on live, we'll we'll buddy team it and and you'll see it's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Yeah, you can bring me in slow. You can train me.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

There you go. You can dip in a toe before you dive in.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah. Self-empathy.

Empathy Is Perspective Not Softness

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Okay. Empathy has become a bit of a buzzword lately. What do you think people misunderstand about empathy? Because I know some people don't even know what it means.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Yeah. There's actually a lot of myths floating out around out there about empathy. But the biggest one is that people think it only has to do about feelings, right? That the definition is I feel what you feel. That's part of it, but there's actually 43 different kinds of definitions of empathy. And the feeling one is an important one, but it's only one. So there's cognitive empathy, which means I logically understand your situation, where you're at, what's going on, but I don't feel anything. There's motor empathy, which is where, you know, you're mirroring people's facial expressions or body language. You're trying to take their perspective through their body, because that's really the thing. Empathy is about taking the perspective of the other person. And it doesn't matter if we're doing it through feelings or through thought or through body language or, you know, any of the other 40 that I didn't mention. It's about taking that perspective. And that's what people get wrong.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Mm-hmm. I agree with that a lot. And I think I grew up in a very dysfunctional, abusive childhood. And so for me, I think survival, just reading people in the room, gave me very strong empathic skills. Because the only way I could really relate is if I put myself in their shoes, because I wasn't taught anything else. So I just had to go based on what they were doing. Yes. A lot of people think empathy is soft or weak. Why do you think it gets labeled that way?

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Because people don't understand. Well, first of all, because it gets wrapped up in this feelings thing that it's all puppies and rainbows, and it's it's absolutely not. That's like the opposite of what it is. But also because you have to have boundaries. If you're going to use empathy, you can't allow yourself to get mixed up in everything that's going on, which means having strong boundaries, which means having to think about those boundaries ahead of time so that where you want to have them, you know, to really set boundaries, it takes self-reflection and self-awareness. And you can't necessarily do that in real time. That actually takes thought. So to be able to set those boundaries and then keep them takes a lot of strength and a lot of courage because there will always be someone who's going to push against it. And you have to be willing to have consequences because boundaries without consequences are just suggestions.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Ooh, I like that. And congratulations, by the way, on your TEDx talk. I listened to it probably two or three times. It was really good. And so, everybody listening, you should go check it out. I'll put the link in the show notes so you'll have to go and watch it. You did talk about a lot of things in such a short period of time. I know it's hard work to get on those TEDx talks.

Shame Spiral And Numbing Behaviors

SPEAKER_00 5:20

You talked about your music career after experiencing toxic leadership and an assault by a colleague. Looking back now, what did that season teach you?

SPEAKER_01 5:33

I really needed to learn self-emphyto too, it it my dad was career military and we moved around a lot, like every two years. And because of that, I didn't really have friends. I didn't really have safety. I didn't really have foundation. I mean, you you're always getting moved somewhere else. You know, I don't really know my extended family very well, yeah, all of that. And so I learned to take everything on myself. This is my fault. I did this, I can fix this. And I think a lot of us too, when we develop that kind of empathy in childhood of having to smell what's going on in the room, we do have that radical responsibility of we take responsibility for everything, you know? Yes. And so I had to really learn that there are some things that are just outside of my control. Because I I kept asking myself, you know, did I bring this on somehow? Should I have handled it differently? You know, what did I do wrong in the aftermath? Because I had a horrible time with my leadership. I was told if I didn't like it to just go. They didn't want to fix the problem. They didn't want to hear about it. You know, as a junior female faculty member, if I'm stirring up trouble, I'm never going to get promoted. I didn't care about getting promoted. This guy's office was right next to mine. I just wanted to come to work and feel safe. So I had to learn, you know, not to dogpile on myself while all of this was going on and have some self-empathy and compassion in that, yeah, I didn't do anything to deserve this, but I I still have to deal with it, but I didn't deserve it.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Oh gosh. You are speaking my language that shame spiral that it is what I live day to day, just because I believed the lie that everything was my fault. That's the only thing I could understand back then is that, well, I must have done something wrong, and I don't really know what that is, but I know it's my fault.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Right. Exactly. You know, maybe I can learn from this so that I just don't make that mistake again.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Well, but that doesn't happen in an abusive situation. Right. But you try to figure out, okay, how can I make them happy? How can I keep them happy so they don't hurt me? That's all. I remember thinking that to myself a lot. But I had a lot of shame. What did that look like in your day-to-day life back then?

SPEAKER_01 8:01

A lot of women in particular, but people who end up with an assault will put on a lot of weight because you're trying to hide. You're trying to, it's funny because you're trying to be as small as possible and you don't want anybody to look at you. You don't want anybody to know. And but the problem is, is if you're already feeling that shame and then you're packing on weight on top of it, that it really does spiral. You you can't get out of it. And for me, I was a performing musician, so I'm on stage, you know, in front of people every day, and the shame was so out of control. I can like feel it, it's like right in my chest.

unknown 8:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Because it it never really goes away. You kind of learn to live with it, but and you learn what it is, but it isn't like it's ever erased. It's just there. So it just, it was, it was just so out of, and of course, part of that too, I was drinking. I was, you know, just I it wasn't good. And and one bad thing led to another, and the numbing and all the stuff that goes with it. And it it just it really took me having to take a look in to be able to deal with what was going on on the outside.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yes, yes. I'm not gonna pretend I've got it figured out, I don't, but well, but we've learned how to get curious and become aware. I mean, for the longest time when I was over 300 pounds, I didn't really think that I was that big because I was in denial. I just was numbing out, I wasn't looking outside of the blinders, so to speak. I had blinders on.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

And so I just kept eating to soothe my emotions and to try and figure out what the pain. I didn't even want to look at the pain.

unknown 9:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

All I know is that it temporarily soothed me. And before I knew it, I was so overweight and unhealthy. And it took flying on an airplane, believe it or not, and I couldn't buckle the seatbelt. This thing's broken. So I asked the stewardess, like, Can you this is broken, something's wrong? She goes, ma'am, you need an extender. I said, What is that? So she whips out this additional piece that you clip on when you're too big for the seatbelt. And that's when I thought, wow, I'm really big. It just didn't dawn on me. I was in denial, I think. But I love how you talk so openly about the food and the alcohol or whatever else you were using to numb out the pain. But then you're right. Once you gain the weight and you start wearing bigger, bigger sizes, you start having a lot of failure. I felt failed because I kept trying to lose the weight and I couldn't, couldn't stick to it.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Absolutely. And it and it started impacting my career because I played French horn. So you have to be able to breathe. You have to be able to expand your lungs, and it's it's a very athletic activity. It doesn't look like it, but it is. Well, you know, your lung capacity is determined by your height, your gender, and your age. Well, I am five foot three, I am female, and I'm over 40. So I got all three working against me. And to add extra weight on top of it, I mean, I could tell, I couldn't play like I needed to be able to. I couldn't stand on stage. I couldn't, you know, and it just that's it's the same. I felt like a failure. I'm like, well, I've failed in life and I've failed at this career I've worked my entire life for, and I've, you know, forget what have I got left.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

I remember one time a doctor told me, because I was so embarrassed about my weight and my body, and she said, Pam, you know, obesity is not a choice, it is a disease. And when she said that, I thought, wow, I I never really looked at it like that. And we all blame ourselves thinking that it's so uh under our control, but a lot of times, based on your situation, it isn't. In your TEDx talk, something you said just stopped me. I had to go listen to it again. And you said it was never about the weight on my body, it was about the weight on my heart. I wanted to cry when I heard that. And it was just so true and so vulnerable of you.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Well, the thing is, is I know I'm not the only one. Because one thing about shame, we suffer through it silently because we don't want anybody to know. I did. I mean, I didn't it the irony is that, you know, the more space I took up, the less space I wanted to take up. And I tried to hide. I didn't want anybody to see me. I was so embarrassed. But, you know, it shame doesn't go away by hiding it. We have to talk about it, or we have to at least acknowledge it.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Many of my therapists have told me many times, these things that you're struggling with are never going to go away. We can give you coping skills, how to deal with it, because it's forever ingrained in there. And it's true, the more I learn and the more I become aware of things, and I think I'm getting better. But sometimes I'll go back and I'll realize, oh, I'm starting to think this way again, and it's not correct.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yeah. Yeah. I actually fought that this past weekend because I I don't get to play my music as much anymore. Um, so the times I do get to, I really cherish it. And this past weekend I got to go and play the Brahms horn trio, which is like this masterwork. It's like people spend their entire lives wanting to do this piece. But right now I'm carrying a little extra, well, I'm carrying a lot extra weight. And I almost didn't go because of that. I was like, I don't want people to see me like this. And then it was like, you know, number one, then you, me, lose the opportunity to get to do something that, you know, is my dharma. Between that and empathy, that's kind of my reason for living. And you're taking this light away from the world. This is a masterwork. This is something people don't hear live. It's a gift. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

You must share it.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Yeah. So that I finally talked myself into it, but I I was like right there to not going because of that. So those patterns are always there.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Oh my gosh. I think a lot of people are carrying weight that has nothing to do with a scale. It may be shame, grief, disappointment, people pleasing, perfectionism, and expectations they were never meant to carry.

Finding The Weight Under The Habit

unknown 14:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

If someone listening is fighting those things like the overworking, the food, or people pleasing, whatever coping behavior, how can they tell when the real issue isn't what's on the surface, it's the weight they're carrying underneath. Is there a way they can start to learn or be aware?

SPEAKER_01 15:02

So that's where I I start to talk about self-empathy and being able to have that. Because for those of us that have empathy, we're really quick to want to give that to other people, you know, non-judgmental acceptance and kindness and this kind of thing. But we're not always so quick to give it to ourselves. And it's because when you're showing empathy for another person, you you just step into their shoes, you understand who they are and where they are, but you do it in a way that's through their eyes. So you're not bringing baggage with you. When you're trying to have empathy for yourself, you're carrying all that baggage along. So it becomes really hard to see what's there, you know? And the first thing that you can really do is do the best you can to be critical, not caring. And what I mean by that is you're looking at information. It's like a computer. You're looking at patterns, you're looking at data, you're looking at overarching themes, but you're not assigning anything emotional. Because that's where we really get hung up. So I'm I'm encouraging people to use cognitive self-empathy instead of emotional self-empathy. Because if you want to get better, you do need to look at this stuff. You have to self-reflect, you have to take a look at it. But if every time you do, you're going to beat yourself up and I'm a failure and I suck and this is I'm ashamed and I'm embarrassed. It's all you're doing is is banging yourself over the head with your own perceived sins, and that's that's no good. So if you can just approach it by being critical, not caring and observing, almost like a third person. You know, what would someone else say if they saw you? Would they be like, oh my gosh, that's she's so stupid. How could she have done that? Or would they be like, Yeah, she hit a really rough time, you know. A little compassion would be good here because she's got it, she's got it together, but she just has hit a bump.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

And yeah. And and I really do think we delay the binge is all about the pause. And that's what we talk about on this show all the time is the transformation that happens in the pause before the reaction, before we act.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

And so my opinion is that self-emphy has a big role in that. But what do you think self-empathy plays in the pause?

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Oh, I'd absolutely agree. Because that gives you a chance in that pause to actually say, yeah, I know why I'm doing this, and I can make a choice.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

So do you think empathy and self-emphyta and self-judgment sometimes I think people can get that line crossed, but it can't exist in the same space. I think I've heard you say that actually.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Right. Yep. Because in judgment, so here's the difference between being critical and being judgmental. Because when you're being judgmental, you're judging, you're comparing two things. So you're comparing yourself against your old self, or you're comparing yourself against an ideal that doesn't exist. You know, you might be comparing yourself against somebody else. And as soon as that comparison comes in, that's when things get dark because you can't live up to that. No matter what you do. You know, you just that's why social media can be so devastating. You're you're judging it and you're never gonna live up to what's out there. And and newsflash, the people on social media aren't living up to what's out there either. You know, none of us are. So yeah, judgment and empathy cannot exist in the same space. And that's true for self-empathy as well. You know, if you're gonna judge yourself against societal ideals, you're never gonna hit, or people around you, what your family says, what your friend says, you're never gonna hit that mark. Critical is okay if you if you're like, okay, yes, I'm looking at this objectively, I'm taking the emotion out of it. Yeah, these things probably do need to change. These things will make me better. But that's different than actually assigning judgment and emotion and you know, shame and boy, what's wrong with me, you know?

SPEAKER_00 19:01

All those things that are caused just because very early in life, especially women, we are taught these expectations. We are made aware that all these expectations of us as a woman, we try to live up to those expectations all the time and compare ourselves to the other people that are living up to those expectations. But sometimes they're just not very realistic for us personally.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

No. No. And what are the other people that are meeting those expectations doing to do it? I mean, you know, do they have a lot of help that maybe we don't have? Are they, you know, finding different ways to do it? I mean, there may be some way to learn from it, but a lot of times too, are they actually meeting those expectations? You know, yeah, is it an illusion?

SPEAKER_00 19:49

It's an illusion because this is what we talk about too. I'm so excited about it, but it's quiet depletion. And what that is is where everything looks fine on the outside, right? But on the inside, you are exhausted, yes, depleted, and you have nothing left. And so you're reaching for unhealthy behaviors and uh reactions that don't serve you or your family or anyone else in your life. And but everyone thinks you're fine. Everyone thinks you're just the most amazing, well-put together person in the world, but really you're not.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yeah. That was one thing about gaining the weight is it was a very physical manifestation of what was going on.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

But not everybody has that physical manifestation. Like you said, it's a disease. And not everybody is going to have the same flu symptoms. Well, not everyone's going to have the same symptoms of that disease either.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Or cancer for that matter. Hello. Hello. Do you think it's your fault that you have cancer? Well, some people do blame themselves, but still.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

It's an illness that has to be treated as such.

Boundaries Need Consequences

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

I'm really working hard on my boundaries. But it's really hard because I'm such a people pleaser, and I will literally just pretty much do anything to make people happy. And my therapist tells me it's my way of guaranteeing they don't leave me. I've been working hard at that. And your recent work focuses heavily on boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

So why do so many high-functioning people struggle to set them?

SPEAKER_01 21:23

In general, don't have a problem setting them. They have a problem backing them up. They'll say, I don't want this to happen, but then someone will infringe on that boundary because there's something that they want or they need this person to do something. And that's when they go, Oh, all right. Okay, but just this once. This is the only time I'm going to do that. You know, that's what I mean. Boundaries without consequences are just suggestions. And people aren't necessarily going to honor a suggestion.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Exactly. And a lot of times let's take people pleasing, for example. Some people think it's It's a boundary problem, but other people think that it's a personality trait. What do you think on that?

SPEAKER_01 22:08

I don't think it's a personality trait. I I think not to get too broad on it, we end up in trouble as human beings when we start treating other people as objects, and that includes ourselves. So if all of a sudden we start thinking of ourselves as an object, something to get this work done, something to make these people happy, something to be able to get through the day, instead of thinking of ourselves as a person who has needs and wants and has boundaries, that's when we get into trouble. So because I don't I don't think it's a personality trait necessarily. I think that because if you look at um it's called the ocean scale, O-C-E-A-N, and it's like openness and neuroticism, but the A stands for agreeableness. And you can push that agreeableness too far, but even at that, it's always on a spectrum. All human behavior is on a spectrum, and we can move within that spectrum. So, you know, I don't think it's something that that we're stuck with. I think it's something that we can decide just how agreeable we do or don't want to be.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

I love that. I struggled a long time because people would always think that I had some ulterior motive for being kind. And I would try to explain to them back when I was younger that by genuinely being helpful or kind, it was healing my soul and my heart. It made me feel like a better person. You just have a fear of disappointing people, or like my therapist said, you don't want people to abandon you. And I used to believe that, but then I started realizing I really like helping people. And I don't expect anything in return. It just like a superpower, right? When I'm kind and thoughtful of someone else, it's not for anything except to I do want to make them happy. I do want to please them, but only because that makes me happy.

unknown 24:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Nice Versus Kind And People Pleasing

SPEAKER_01 24:13

I I mean, I think you're talking about the difference too between being nice and being kind. You know, including the the difference between being genuinely kind and being a people pleaser, because they're they're different things. Like if we think about nice, nice is a social construct. It's what we do to get by in society, it's what lubricates the wheels of society so it makes it easier. You know, it's kind of like having manners. Strictly speaking, it's not really necessary, it just makes life easier. Kindness is when we actually really care about the outcome for yourself and the other person. And this is the other way I actually explain boundaries, because a lot of times you can tell that you are going past one of your own boundaries when you're doing something to be nice for somebody else, but it's costing you being kind to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Oh my goodness. That's pretty deep.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Yes, I can see just even in the last few years of my life that I have really been focused on being kind to myself, and it does make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

I used to think of it as selfish to think of myself. And I think that's just the way I grew up. Having to think of everyone else, take care of everyone else, make sure they're safe. Yeah. So it takes a long time to undo those patterns that your brain loves.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Yeah. It does. And I don't know if you ever undo them, you just kind of make friends with them.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yep. I love that. That's my friend.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Yeah. And a lot of women are taught to be nice, socially nice.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Oh, yeah. We get ourselves in all sorts of trouble that way. That's how we end up in situations like being in an elevator with someone that gives you the creeps because you don't want to not be nice. Or you're in a situation that you're like, I should not be here. Oh, I don't want to be rude. I mean, we get ourselves in all sorts of trouble by being nice.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Yeah, that's the exp at the expense of ourselves. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Do you think many women call it kindness when it's actually fear of disappointing someone?

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yeah, I do. I I think as women, we are socialized to to be nice, to be good girls, to do the right, you know, whatever the right thing is by society, you know. And we're not actually allowed to consider these things. You know, what is the difference between nice and kind? It doesn't matter. This is what society tells you to do. It doesn't really matter what it is, this is what you do. And so we never have the opportunity to say, well, that might be being nice. That's very polite, but it's not very kind to me. And and maybe I don't want to give that piece of myself over. Maybe I want to keep that piece.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Well, and learning too, boundaries is about do you think deciding if a person is toxic in your life or not?

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Oh, heck yeah.

unknown 27:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

It that's the hard part for me, is is I call it confrontation, but just being honest and a apparent, just open about you're not a good person in my life. I don't like this. So goodbye.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah, fear of disappointing.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Yes. And that confrontation, what's gonna happen if I do?

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

You know, and then you spin out on all these crazy scenarios that that probably won't happen, you know. I had uh a client ask me, well, why do I I keep attracting all these toxic people? Why do they keep coming to me? And I'm like, we all attract toxic people. It's just that you're not turning them away. Yes, it's you. You are the common factor. Yes, yes. You need to put up your boundaries and the the consequences part. There has to be consequences. I say you have to have an if-then statement. I need open and honest communication. If you do not give me this, then I will not put any more effort into this situation. And you have to be clear about that. You know, my consequence is if you breach this boundary, then I'm cutting you out. Or at least I'm not putting any more effort into this. If you don't have an if-then statement in there, there may or may not be a consequence.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

I love that. That's pretty easy to remember. It's kind of similar to what you said. I think you said uh boundaries without self-empathy are just rules nobody follows. I don't think of it like rules, but I guess it is.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Yeah. These are the rules for what I need to be safe and healthy.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

And you have to establish those rules. A lot of times I always tell people this story about them how life is like we're climbing a mountain trying to get to the top. And if you don't focus on the journey, then when you get to the top, you're gonna be like, this is it. This is what I've been working hard for all my life. It's not what I thought it would be. But it's just because you have no clue what you want, what your rules are.

unknown 29:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Because you've been so busy climbing. You forgot to look in.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Well, and for a lot of us that are achievers, we get to the top, like you said, and look around and go, Well, this is it. Well, it must not have been a high enough mountain. I need to go find another mountain. And now I gotta find another mountain, and now I gotta find another mountain. And then you're like, well, none of that did what I thought it was gonna do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Yeah, the

Boundaries Versus Barriers

SPEAKER_00 29:39

wall. How can we tell when a boundary is healthy versus when it's becoming like a wall? So that's the difference between boundaries and barriers. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

So with a boundary, it comes from the inside out. You think about it, you reflect on it, you say, this is the this is where I want this, this is why. This is creating this safety, this health, and this is where I need it to be. A barrier generally comes from the outside in. You're reacting to something. You know, I just had a horrible relationship, and so now I'm not getting to know anybody. I'm throwing up these barriers so that I don't have to deal with anybody. A boundary is going to be healthy. You know, I'm gonna put up this boundary. I have my if if you do not communicate and have honesty with me, then I will not put anything into this relationship. That's healthy. For a barrier, if you're just like, I'm just throwing up all these walls and nobody's getting in, now you're dealing with isolation. Now you're dealing with not actually having any communication or connection with anybody else, and that's unhealthy.

unknown 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

So it's really a question of where it lays on that line. And and sometimes it can slide, which is why you got to keep thinking about it, you know. Have I allowed this boundary to become a barrier? Because the thing with barriers is they're not just unhealthy for the person who put it up, they're unhealthy for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Anybody in a relationship with this person is going to deal with that unhealthiness.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yeah, because that and just years of pushing that down or just not even realizing it does take a toll on you mentally. And you do start snapping, you get more angry easier. I knew that happened to me. For someone who has spent years criticizing themselves, how would we use your self-empathy framework to start? What's the first thing we need to do?

SPEAKER_01 31:29

So there's four steps to developing self-empathy. And the first is the self-observation, like we talked about, stepping back, you know, taking a look. This is that cognitive empathy, right? Just taking in the information, staying critical, not caring. The second is self-reflection. So you have to turn that lens inward. And this is where things can be sticky because you're going, okay, yeah, I did snap. But did I snap because that's what needed to happen? Or did I snap because someone pushed my buttons somehow? Was I triggered somehow? Does this, you know, does this guy remind me of my father-in-law and that's why I went off, as opposed to just, you know, he pushed my boundaries and this wasn't, this wasn't appropriate. Once you've done that reflection, then you turn the lens outward to self-awareness and understanding your impact on the world. Reflection is your impact on yourself. Awareness is your impact on the world. You know, yeah, that that I did snap at him, and you know what it did is it made it so that now he's not talking to me at all. We have no communication, and this isn't going to work. So then that leads to self-compassion. So if empathy is the taking perspective, compassion is the actual action. So self-compassion may be, you know what, I didn't do very well with that. Now I understand where it came from, and I probably need to go offer Bob an apology. But I also need to be kind to myself and not beat myself up over this because I know why it happened. I know exactly what I did. And I'm going to be kind to myself and just say, all right, I'm going to learn from this and move on.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

I love that. Just give yourself a little grace, people.

unknown 33:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Come on, just quit beating yourself up.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Move on and learn from it. My son, when he was in third grade, he's 36 now, but when he was in third grade, his teacher called me in his first day of school. I thought, oh no, he's in trouble. But she said, I just want to meet you in person because I asked the class today how we learn. And your son raised his hand and said, by messing up. Yes. I know. I thought, wow, he's listening. I didn't think he was. Or watching. What belief about success, leadership, personal growth do you think needs to be challenged? Because I think people have an impression of it that's not accurate.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Yeah. I I would agree. It's exactly like we were talking about climbing the mountain and that success is always you've you've got to run faster. You've got to bang your head against the wall harder. You've got to push further. And usually people that are striving for success in one area are striving for that perfection in other areas. So for us as women, that means the perfect job, the perfect family, the perfect relationship, the perfect house, the per, you know, and and you're right, it's exhausting. And we can't because nobody can. So I mean, the first myth is just to understand that as human beings, that's that's the way it is. This isn't going to, we're never going to reach that pinnacle, you know. So in looking for success, I think it really takes stepping back and redefining, okay, what is success for me? Is success being the best leader that I can be? Does that mean the self-development means having some self-empathy and saying, you know, I really do need to fill in these gaps here, here, and here? And that may mean that I need to take a little time from being wonder mom and super partner and everything else so that I can actually work on me. And that's not being selfish.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

No.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Because now I can share that with the rest of the world.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Exactly. And I always tell people, you should never be done. We always set these goals and we think once we get to this, then I'll be completely happy and done. But that's not true. We need to be in a constant state of evolving or becoming. I just love the word becoming. I did a whole series on it, actually. I just love it.

unknown 35:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Becoming, but I I did learn from many of my guests that you don't become someone different. You come back to the person you always were meant to be. And I thought that was just beautiful. If someone listening has spent years or their whole lives, maybe, being kind to everyone except themselves, what do you want to leave them with today? What's the one thing you you hope they hear today?

SPEAKER_01 36:03

That being kind to yourself first is not selfish. It is not self-pity. It is not, you know, putting yourself first. It's putting your own mask on, like on the airplane. I mean, it's it's an old cliche, but it's it's putting on your own mask so you can help others. And it's not trying to pour from an empty cup. Because when you get to the end of this life, you know, you need to be fulfilled and as a human being and and becoming. You don't want to get to the end of this and go, boy, I really could have evolved into who I wanted to be if I hadn't poured all that out on everybody else and forgotten myself.

The Brain Science Of Empathy

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Melissa, can you tell me about how the patterns of the brain, like the lower brain and the frontal cortex, how does empathy fit into that?

SPEAKER_01 36:57

That's a fantastic question because this is actually based on some relatively recent research. I mean, empathy as a subject goes back to like the early 1900s where they actually put empathy as a name to this. And it's it's gone through a lot of evolutions and people trying to decide what it is. But in 2018, a couple of researchers came up with what they call the dual root model of empathy. And so what this means is that there's emotional empathy and then there's cognitive empathy. And emotional empathy is fast, it's intuitive, it's going to be more lower brain, it's gut instinct, it's it's feelings, it's all, you know, that kind of thing. Whereas cognitive empathy is going to be upper brain, it's going to be slower, it's more iterative. You have time to think about it. And that's the one that I really bring to leaders. Because frankly, if I have someone who's leading and it's in, you know, a bad situation, I want someone who's going to have a cool head and a warm heart. You know, I don't just want someone who's going to lead heart first and potentially really make a big mess of everything. We need to have that cool head component. And if you lead too much with the heart, you end up with what's called empathy fatigue. And a lot of healthcare professionals end up with that as well. Whereas if you can add that cognitive part to it, you can kind of balance it out a little more. So that's a fantastic question.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

And it sounds like quiet depletion, what I describe as quiet depletion because it's exhausting when we use our brains the wrong way. And plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but the lower brain reaction is short-term usually. It's not long term, like the thinking part of your brain. I guess so that's why you want your leaders to come up with long-term solutions.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Right. Because so see that working wonderfully in the corporate world.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah. Well, the other thing too is that empathy is weird in that it works, that emotional empathy works best with small groups of people or person to person. But when you start dealing with larger groups, it becomes harder to have empathy because there isn't a face. That's why a little girl falling down the well is going to get front page over, you know, genocide in some country that we can't pronounce. Stalin said that a single death is a tragedy, but a million deaths is a statistic. And it's kind of rough, but that is how empathy works. So if you can pull that cognitive empathy in, you can balance that out.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Yeah, the ever-elusive balance of life. It's hard, isn't it? The balancing act. I've I've struggled with that my whole life in every aspect. Yeah. But the goal is to keep trying, keep learning and keep applying. And I did want to ask one more is about the empath. I hear a lot about are you an empath? Can you explain to us what that means?

SPEAKER_01 39:50

So it it kind of means different things. There's there's really nothing in the academic literature about it, per se. But when people talk about it, usually they're talking about feelings, that they can really feel someone else's feelings, sometimes to the point that they get kind of enmeshed, you know, that they take on the other person's feelings. Um, and that it kind of has an energetic component too. So, you know, the empathy has an energy and taking that on and that sort of thing. The thing is, is with empathy, if you're actually looking at definitions and academic research, you never actually lose yourself in that. It's always, you are always separate from whoever you are having empathy for. Because if you start actually merging into that person, that's when you start getting people who think they're somebody else, or you know, you hear about people like that, you know, I'm George Washington kind of thing. And now you're getting into mental illness. So that's something else.

unknown 40:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Identity, identity crisis or issues.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

The thing is, is there's there's so many things that science hasn't caught up with. So I don't dismiss it necessarily. I mean, I think anything is possible. I just know that I'm not finding it in the research.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Okay. Well, that's wonderful. That's perfect. I think a lot of us wonder about those things. Just wanted to make sure I asked you. I'm just so glad you're out there with this message because a lot of people just aren't aware that they think this way about empathy or kindness, and they don't realize the importance of it and how we can literally heal by relating or communicating or just connecting with other people and then treating them the way they need to be treated instead of the way we want to treat them. Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Absolutely. I mean, yeah, you need to have boundaries because there will always be those goobers for lack of a better word.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

I call my daughter goober.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

Yeah. There will always be goobers out there that aren't going to get it and will mistake your kindness for weakness. And that's that's their problem. That's not your problem, that's their problem. But don't hide or shy away from it because there are plenty of people like us that want that connection. Again, the beautiful thing about empathy is when it's working well, it works in both directions. And that's really what we're looking for is uh empathetic connections.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

That's the superpower.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Yep, because it compounds on itself then.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

And everybody wins.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Yes.

How To Connect And Final Pause

unknown 42:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

And the movers can go do their own thing.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Melissa, where where can our listeners connect with you, learn more about your work, and find the empathic leader?

SPEAKER_01 42:35

So you can find me at my website, which is EQVia, and that's Via's and Victoriaempathy.com. And there's connect uh ways to get my book. My TEDx is linked there. I have a newsletter, I have a blog, um, it talks about where I'm speaking next, all of that good stuff. My book is available at Amazon, it's at Barnes and Noble. I do have an audio version, which I did read.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

So Oh my gosh, kudos to you.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Thank you. That that was that was a big project.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

There's a reason I don't have an audiobook out.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

It's you know, if I would have known going into it what I know now, I probably would have done it anyway. But I wouldn't have been so naive about it, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Gosh. We're constantly evolving, yes?

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Yes, yes. And then if anybody wants to join me on my live stream, it's on LinkedIn. It's Wednesday nights at six Eastern, and the more the merrier.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

I'm gonna be there, y'all. So y'all y'all should join me. I'm gonna check it out.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

Yeah, that would be fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 43:35

Melissa, thank you so much for being here today and for sharing your wisdom, your story, and your heart with us and your kindness. And for everyone listening, if Melissa's message touched something in you, you'll find links to connect with her as she gave us before. But don't worry if you didn't write them down. I'm gonna put them all in the show notes. If your organization, conference, association, or leadership team is looking for speakers on any of these topics like resilience, quiet depletion, behavior change, empathy, or sustainable growth, Melissa, I'd love to continue the conversation. And to everyone listening, remember you don't have to fix everything today. You don't have to know the whole entire road. You only have to pause long enough to ask, what's the next right thing? Until next time, pause, choose, build momentum, finish stronger, and I will see y'all next week. Thanks, Melissa.

unknown 44:39

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

Hey, it's me, Pam. And before we go, just a quick reminder. Everything we share here is meant to encourage, educate, and get you thinking. But it's not a substitute for professional mental health, medical, legal, financial, or any other licensed advice. I'm simply someone who's walking through life, learning right alongside you. And I'm grateful we get to learn together. Always seek the guidance of a qualified professional for your unique situation. Thanks for spending this time with us. Until next time, remember sometimes the biggest change begins with one small pause. I'll see you on the next episode of Delay the Bench.